In your opinion, asked Christie, was there an order of Adolf Hitler for the extermination of the Jews?
"That is my opinion, my conclusion," said Hilberg.
[22] Well, yesterday, I think you told us you were very sure there was an order, suggested Christie.
"Yes."
Okay. Is that an important order?, asked Christie.
"I would say so."
[…]
Christie produced Hilberg's book The Destruction of the European Jews published in 1961 and turned to page 177:
How was the killing phase brought about? Basically, we are dealing with two of Hitler's decisions. One order was given in the spring of 1941...
Is there a footnote there?, asked Christie.
"No. This is an introductory passage to a chapter... This is an introductory passage to an eighty page chapter," said Hilberg.
I didn't ask you what it was, said Christie. I asked you if there is a footnote.
"No, there is no footnote there," admitted Hilberg. (4-829)
What order were you referring to?, asked Christie.
"In this particular case I have elaborated, in my second edition, since there is so much discussion and controversy over the nature of this order. So I could tell you not solely on the basis of what was published here in 1961, if you wish to hear it, but on the basis of all my knowledge to this date, to what I am referring to."
What was the order?, repeated Christie.
"Within the high command of the armed forces a plan was made for 'treatment of populations' inside the territories that were to be occupied following the invasion of the USSR. That order was submitted through channels to Adolf Hitler for his approval. He indicated that he wanted certain editions and changes made in this directive. We have, and I have quoted here, the directive dated March 1941. Excuse me, I am speaking of a directive, not a Hitler order," said Hilberg.
Christie repeated that what he was interested in was the one order referred to by Hilberg in his book. (4-830)
"If you allow me," said Hilberg, "I will explain the changes in the directive... I know what you are interested in, but you are raising a question, a question complicated enough to have caused a distinguished historian in Germany to invite people from all over the world to pool their knowledge in order to figure out what happened."
Judge Hugh Locke interjected: "Let's get on with the answer. What is the answer to counsel's question?"
"The question was about the Hitler order," said Hilberg. "There was a draft directive. Hitler wanted changes made in it. The changes were subsequently made in April and were then resubmitted to Adolf Hitler's approval."
Okay, said Christie. So there is a Hitler order you say that was approved by Adolf Hitler in 1941 in April?
"By April, yes," said Hilberg.
By April, or in April?, asked Christie.
"Now you want the exact date."
No, I don't, said Christie. I want to know whether it was in April.
"We are talking about several weeks at the end of March when these discussions took place," said Hilberg. (4-831)
What were the words in the order?, asked Christie.
"According to General Jodl, who wrote this document I am now citing, the words were - ...Adolf Hitler said that he wanted the Jewish-Bolshevik commissars to be liquidated... that was the first part of it... He said that for this task he wanted organs of the SS and police to be directly involved and responsible. He then pointed out that for this purpose the military should discuss with the SS and police the details. Now, that was the content of the order as described by General Jodl." (4-832)
So we don't have the order?, asked Christie.
"The order was oral," said Hilberg, "and all we have are the reflections of Adolf Hitler's words as described by Jodl. We have, however, the words also of other people who were talking to Adolf Hitler which were more direct and more specific, but those words occurred in different contexts, such as Henry Himmler's words, and words spoken by other people. In any case, the order was oral."
The order was oral, and you don't know what the exact words were?, asked Christie.
"You are quite correct. No one knows the exact wording... When I say that we do not know the words, I do not mean the general content. I meant the specific words." (4-833) In Hilberg's opinion, the order referred to "Jewish dash Bolshevik commissars... because there was a document and I am quoting Jodl." This document was in the West German National Archives but Hilberg admitted that he had not included it in his book, Documents of Destruction, published in 1971: "No. It is a small book and it contains a variety of documents, but not this one."
Christie pointed out that the book appeared to contain the documents Hilberg thought were important.
"No," said Hilberg. "As I explained in my preface, it is a mixture of some important and some, shall we say, descriptive items of what went on locally."
Can you think of a more important order?, asked Christie. (4-834)
"You see, sir," said Hilberg, "in preparing a very small book such as this one, which is a collection of documents aggregating a couple of hundred pages, one must make some choices. And even if the topic is very important, if it requires, since no document is really self- explanatory, a group of documents with additional explanations, I might have had to use a rather substantial portion of space for this one point."
Is this a long order?, asked Christie.
"It is not that the words are that long, but that the explanation, the history, the... nature of the directive, the explanation of who originally drafted the directive, what the channels were - this is not a simple matter."
[23] So, said Christie, really we don't have an order in existence in any written form. We have from you an interpretation of what Mr. Jodl is supposed to have said Adolf Hitler is supposed to have said, which you say was in the archives in West Germany, and which you say has a dash between Jewish and Bolshevik. (4-835)
"That is my best recollection," said Hilberg.
So it wasn't just Jewish-Bolshevik commissars that had to be killed. It was Jewish people, was it?, asked Christie.
"Well, this particular problem is the one that caused a lot of discussion," said Hilberg. "There is no precise, clear answer as to what the exact wording was. We could only deduce from subsequent explanations by lower ranking individuals who passed on this particular command, particularly to the Einsatzgruppen, what it was that was being ordered."
This was the commissars order to the Einsatzgruppen, was it?, asked Christie.
"Ultimately it was the order not only to the Einsatzgruppen, it was to the armed forces as well."
I want to understand clearly, said Christie. This order says, 'Annihilate Jewish Bolshevik commissars', right?
"Mm-hmmm," said Hilberg. (4-836)
And you interpret that to mean 'Annihilate Jewish people and Bolshevik commissars', right?
"Correct."
But it doesn't say 'Jewish people and Bolshevik commissars', said Christie.
"No, it does not," said Hilberg. "And obviously, one would not call a conference and one would not discuss in great detail, and one would not have extensive articles if the matter were clear-cut. There is such a thing as a gap in knowledge of history, and we are dealing here with one of the more complex problems of what the Germans called decision-making in this case." (4- 837)
Christie pointed out that from Hilberg's brief and unfootnoted statement on page 177 of his book it did not appear to be a very complex subject. He reread it to the jury:
Basically, we are dealing with two of Hitler's decisions. One order was given in the spring of 1941, during the planning of the invasion of the USSR; it provided that small units of the SS and Police be dispatched to Soviet territory, where they were to move from town to town to kill all Jewish inhabitants on the spot.
What they were told, pointed out Christie, even according to you, was not to kill all Jewish inhabitants but to kill Jewish-Bolshevik commissars. Correct?
"What I am saying is that the original wording justifying the establishment of special units called organs in this particular language of the SS and police was the killing of Jewish- Bolshevik commissars. This was the justification. The units to be established for this purpose belonged to the SS and police, which was deemed to be the type of organization to carry out such a political task, rather than the armed forces. This, of course, does not exhaust the problem. One would not set up four units aggregating three thousand men to kill a small handful of people, Bolshevik commissars, who were extremely few, and who were not often captured since they tried to avoid capture, naturally, and there would be little point in establishing, with high- ranking personnel, three thousand men, such, you know, for such a single small purpose, relatively small purpose."
There is no order from Adolf Hitler to the Einsatzgruppen or anybody else to kill all Jewish inhabitants on the spot, right?, asked Christie.
"Now, I would say that the order, as for example Himmler pointed out, was given to him. He was invested with the responsibility to solve this problem. So in other words, one must put - "
What problem?, asked Christie.
"The Jewish problem," said Hilberg, "as they called it." (4-839)
I thought, said Christie, that we were referring to the Jewish-Bolshevik commissars order. That is not the Jewish problem, is it?
"This is the problem," said Hilberg, "of teaching complex history in such a small setting, but what I am telling you is that the initial problem was administrative. One had to establish battalions of SS and police that had to move with the armies that exercised military jurisdiction, military territorial jurisdiction within their sphere of operations. A justification had to be given for the establishment of such units. Adolf Hitler said this was a war unlike any other war. This was a war in which there would be a showdown, and the Jewish-Bolshevik commissars, as the bearers -"
[…]
Christie put it to Hilberg that what he was really saying was that it was his interpretation of the commissar order to mean that Jewish inhabitants were to be killed on the spot, even though there was nothing in writing to that effect and, in fact, that was not what it was reported to have said.
"Well, I am saying a little bit more than that," said Hilberg. "I am saying, and I will say that this is a matter which one can dispute honestly, that it was the intention from the beginning, that is to say, the months prior to June 22 1941, to annihilate the Jews in the territories [24] that were about to be overrun. The difference of opinion, the difference of view that was expressed in Stuttgart was whether that particular decision was made in March, in April or at the latest in August." (4-841)
Christie asked whether Hilberg had been quoted to say that there was no order, no plan, no budget.
"Well, I don't know out of what context you are reading these words," said Hilberg. "... Do you have a tape recording?... it doesn't seem like how I would put it. I am very careful in my words, even when I speak extemporaneously."
Christie produced the French edition of Leon Poliakov's book Harvest of Hate. Hilberg testified that Poliakov "is an authority. He is certainly one of the first researchers. He was working with limited source material, limited in today's term. I would regard that what he says is generally reliable." (4-842) When Christie later referred to Poliakov as Hilberg's confrere and associate, Hilberg protested, "He is not a confrere, and he is not an associate... He is one of the people who I regard as a competent researcher and an expert and he is one of the very first." (4- 845)
Hilberg refused to translate a portion of the book as requested by Christie. "I must say that I am not a qualified translator from the French into English." Christie, reading from a translation, asked whether the paragraph said, generally:
Certain details will be forever, however, unknown as far as total extermination is concerned. The three or four principal actors committed suicide in 1945. No document was left behind, as perhaps none ever existed. Such is the [secrecy] with which the masters of the Third Reich, however boastful and cynical on other occasions, surrounded their major crime.
Hilberg agreed this was "an adequate translation" of what the paragraph said, but that "here again, you see, you are taking an introductory paragraph to a chapter." (4 843 to 845)
Christie pointed out that Poliakov did not seem to think there was any document.
"I think that he meant - now you are asking me what I think he meant, but I think that he meant that there was no written document signed by Adolf Hitler, that in short, we do not have a written order. And he said that if we wanted to ask questions after the war of men like Himmler, we can't, because Himmler committed suicide immediately after capture, and because Heydrich was assassinated in 1942, and so that means that some of the principal figures could not be questioned," said Hilberg. (4-845)
Christie produced an article entitled "The Holocaust in Perspective" by George DeWan; beneath a photograph of Hilberg, the caption read: "Panelist Raul Hilberg, a Vermont University political science professor, ponders a question on the Holocaust."
Hilberg said, "It is a question asked by the audience. I was listening."
Christie read out a portion of the article in which it quoted Hilberg:
"If one looks at origins, one may go back through the centuries into antiquity to discover the building blocks of the destruction of the European Jews," Hilberg said. "But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy."
"I said that," admitted Hilberg. "I said nothing about any order not existing."
No, said Christie, nothing there about any order. Right.
"Well, you had previously said that I had, at that meeting, in conjunction with these other phrases, also indicated that there was no order, and I said I recall no such word and, indeed, what you showed me does not indicate that I said anything about an order."
I agree you didn't say anything about an order, said Christie. In fact, you said it was an incredible meeting of minds.
"Yes."
Does that imply the existence of an order?, asked Christie.
"It does not exclude the existence of an order," said Hilberg. "... If an order is given orally and passed on, and especially if wording is couched in such a way that the order giver relies on the understanding of the subordinate, then it does become important for those subordinates to understand, indeed, and to have the same understanding of what was expected. And this is what I said."
Was there an order or wasn't there?, asked Christie.
"I believe that there was a Hitler order," said Hilberg. "... Professor Krausnick believes this. Others believe that there was not." (4-846 to 849)
So it's an article of faith based upon your opinion?, asked Christie.
"No, it is not an article of faith at all. It is a conclusion. One can come down one way on it or the other."
Because there is no evidence to prove one side or the other, right?, asked Christie.
"There may be evidence, but there is a question in this case of what is sufficient evidence," said Hilberg.
One order was given in the spring of 1941 is what you said in your book, said Christie.
"That is one man's opinion - mine."
It doesn't say it is an opinion, said Christie. It states it as a fact, sir, I suggest.
"Look," said Hilberg, "how often must I reiterate that wording? It is in the beginning of a chapter. It is in the nature of saying, here is what I am laying out. Now, keep reading. You don't have to agree with what I say after you have seen the footnotes, after you have seen the evidence."
[…]
Christie returned to page 177 of Hilberg's book where he had written:
This method may be called the "mobile killing operations." Shortly after the mobile operations had begun in the occupied Soviet territories, Hitler handed down his second order. That decision doomed the rest of European Jewry.
Where is this second order?, asked Christie.
"The problem," said Hilberg, "with that particular order is the same as it is with the first. It is oral... And there are people who say, no, it was not one order at all. It was a series of orders that were given to various people at various times... This is a matter for dispute and for argument among historians, and for this purpose one has meetings and second editions of books, too." (4- 851)
I see, said Christie. So you have to correct that statement in your second edition. Right?
"No," said Hilberg, "I am not saying that I have to correct this statement, but there are corrections in the second edition, of course."
Can you show any evidence of the existence of a second Hitler order at all?, asked Christie. And if so, what is it?
"I indicated to you," said Hilberg, "although I have revised my judgments, but if you want to look, I don't say that everything I expressed in this book I retain. I am entitled to change my mind about something I do."
.
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