Ai dreptate, camarade. Tu nu urasti decat tara de peste Prut, "cea mai salbatica tara din lume". A, era sa uit, si Israelul. Pe locuitorii celor doua tari, desigur, ii iubesti ...militant;201703 said:Ce semeni am urat eu?
Ai dreptate, camarade. Tu nu urasti decat tara de peste Prut, "cea mai salbatica tara din lume". A, era sa uit, si Israelul. Pe locuitorii celor doua tari, desigur, ii iubesti ...militant;201703 said:Ce semeni am urat eu?
Sfinx;201636 said:Da' nu ne spui si de unde e luat? Sau nu cunosti limba araba si nu poti transcrie numele ziarului ...?
Husky40;201676 said:Bravo,groparu, am ajuns la discutii de genul "nu au murit 6 milioane, ci doar 4 milioane" sau ce alta cifra vrei tu,
Husky40;201676 said:ceea ce in umila mea opinie este abject si degradant pentru orice om care are un minim de inteligenta si macar o parte din cei 7 ani de acasa.
Husky40;201676 said:Interdictiile au aparut din cauza acestor indivizi care nu au altceva mai bun de facut decat sa incerce sa isi legitimeze antisemitismul propriu pe un calcul al cadravelor. Din punctul meu de vedere, ele sunt contraproductive. Prostii si nemernicii nu trebuie interzisi, ci pusi la punct. Altfel, risti sa dai nastere la tot felul de conspiratii tembele.
Husky40;201676 said:Si mai usor cu propaganda pro-palestiniana. Vezi ca unii dintre noi mai stiu cate ceva despre Israel (Palestina, cum ii spui tu), "palestinieni" (arabi, termenul de palestinian nefiind altceva decat o inventie geniala),
Husky40;201676 said:nu se inchina la Arafat ca la soare si nu stau alaturi de ucigasii cu Koranul intr-o mana si Kalashnikovul in alta.
The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine
Whether there was significant Arab immigration into Palestine after the beginning of Jewish settlement there in the late 19th century has been a matter of some controversy.
Howard Sachar estimates the number of Arabs who immigrated to Palestine between 1922 and 1946 at 100,000.[152] He argues thatThe influx could be traced in some measure to the orderly government provided by the British; but far more, certainly, to the economic opportunities provided by Jewish settlement. The rise of the Yishuv benefited Arab life indirectly, by disproportionate Jewish contributions to the government revenue, and thereby to increase the mandatory expenditures on the Arab sector; and directly, by opening new markets for Arab produce and (until the civil war of 1936) new employment opportunities for the Arab labor. It was significant, for example, that the movement of Arabs within Palestine itself was largely to regions of Jewish concentration. Thus, Arab population increase during the 1930s was 87 percent in Haifa, 61 percent in Jaffa, 37 percent in Jerusalem. A similar growth was registered in Arab towns located near Jewish agricultural villages. The 25 percent rise in of Arab participation in industry could be traced exclusively to the needs of the large Jewish immigration.[153]According to Martin Gilbert, 50,000 Arabs immigrated to Palestine from the neighboring lands between 1919 and 1939 "attracted by the improving agricultural conditions and growing job opportunities, most of them created by the Jews".[154]
American economist Gottheil argues that there likely was significant Arab immigration:There is every reason to believe that consequential immigration of Arabs into and within Palestine occurred during the Ottoman and British mandatory periods. Among the most compelling arguments in support of such immigration is the universally acknowledged and practiced linkage between regional economic disparities and migratory impulses. The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.[155]As McCarthy explains, "... evidence for Muslim immigration into Palestine is minimal. Because no Ottoman records of that immigration have yet been discovered, one is thrown back on demographic analysis to evaluate Muslim migration."[156] On the other hand,[157] Roberto Bachi has concluded that there was a small but significant unrecorded Muslim immigration into Palestine estimated at around 900 people per year or approximately 13,500 in total between 1931 and 1945.[158] McCarthy argues that there is no significant Arab immigration into mandatory Palestine:
From analyses of rates of increase of the Muslim population of the three Palestinian sanjaks, one can say with certainty that Muslim immigration after the 1870s was small. Had there been a large group of Muslim immigrants their numbers would have caused an unusual increase in the population and this would have appeared in the calculated rate of increase from one registration list to another... Such an increase would have been easily noticed; it was not there.[159]
The argument that Arab immigration somehow made up a large part of the Palestinian Arab population is thus statistically untenable. The vast majority of the Palestinian Arabs resident in 1947 were the sons and daughters of Arabs who were living in Palestine before modern Jewish immigration began. There is no reason to believe that they were not the sons and daughters of Arabs who had been in Palestine for many centuries.[160]McCarthy also concludes that there was no significant internal migration to Jewish areas attributable to better economic conditions:
Some areas of Palestine did experience greater population growth than others, but the explanation for this is simple. Radical economic change was occurring all over the Mediterranean Basin at the time. Improved transportation, greater mercantile activity, and greater industry had increased the chances for employment in cities, especially coastal cities... Differential population increase was occurring all over the Eastern Mediterranean, not just in Palestine... The increase in Muslim population had little or nothing to do with Jewish immigration. In fact the province that experienced the greatest Jewish population growth (by .035 annually), Jerusalem Sanjak, was the province with the lowest rate of growth of Muslim population (.009).[161]Gad Gilbar has also concluded that the prosperity of the Palestine in the 45-50 years before World War I was a result of the modernization and growth of the economy owing to its integration with the world economy and especially with the economies of Europe. Although the reasons for growth were exogenous to Palestine the bearers were not waves of Jewish immigration, foreign intervention nor Ottoman reforms but "primarily local Arab Muslims and Christians."[162]
Demographer Uziel Schmelz, in his analysis of Ottoman registration data for 1905 populations of Jerusalem and Hebron kazas, found that most Ottoman citizens living in these areas, comprising about one quarter of the population of Palestine, were living at the place where they were born. Specifically, of Muslims, 93.1% were born in their current locality of residence, 5.2% were born elsewhere in Palestine, and 1.6% were born outside Palestine. Of Christians, 93.4% were born in their current locality, 3.0% were born elsewhere in Palestine, and 3.6% were born outside Palestine. Of Jews (excluding the large fraction who were not Ottoman citizens), 59.0% were born in their current locality, 1.9% were born elsewhere in Palestine, and 39.0% were born outside Palestine.[163]
Yehoshua Porath believes that the notion of "large-scale immigration of Arabs from the neighboring countries" is a myth "proposed by Zionist writers". He writes:As all the research by historian Fares Abdul Rahim and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no "natural" increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. This was the main reason for Arab population growth. ... No one would doubt that some migrant workers came to Palestine from Syria and Trans-Jordan and remained there. But one has to add to this that there were migrations in the opposite direction as well. For example, a tradition developed in Hebron to go to study and work in Cairo, with the result that a permanent community of Hebronites had been living in Cairo since the fifteenth century. Trans-Jordan exported unskilled casual labor to Palestine; but before 1948 its civil service attracted a good many educated Palestinian Arabs who did not find work in Palestine itself. Demographically speaking, however, neither movement of population was significant in comparison to the decisive factor of natural increase.[164]
adrenalina;201687 said:groparu, conform logicii tale... este oare corect sa ii tragem la raspundere pe nepotii rusilor care conform lui getowarr au ucis jumatate din populatia globului? este corect sa ii tragem la raspundere pe actualii rusi din RM, datorita faptului ca sute de mii de moldoveni au fost deportati in Siberia?
adrenalina;201687 said:asta asa, ca doar nimeni nu spune de germani ca is sariti de pe fix... sunt o natiune care si-a asumat aceste crime si care a reusit sa treaca peste acest episod... vad ca se gasesc oameni in MOldova care sa nu fie de-acord cu germanii si alegerea lor.
gettowar;201627 said:Hitler a condamnat 6 mil evrei si 50 de mii de alta nationalitate in lagare.
Stalin: 50 mil chinezi
7 mil rusi
12 milioane de alta etnie
Dupa fiecare cifra sta un om...
castorryy;201748 said:nazistii au omorit Y persoane , comunistii au omorit de vreo 5 ori mai mult
Bati campii, Victore. "Americanii" nu s-au asezat in tara nimanui, nici nu existau in momentul in care colonistii europeni se stabileau in America, iar evreii nu au facut altceva decat sa revina in zona din care fusesera expulzati (chiar daca incomplet) cu secole in urma. Mai mult, epurarea israeliana exista doar in capsorul tau. Evreii fusesera de acord cu impartirea Palestinei in doua state, pretenarii tai arabi au fost cei care au spus nu, si-au scos sabia si au urlat "in mare cu evreii!". Cat de bine a iesit, asta stim cu totii.andrei_victor said:Evreii ca si americanii inaintea lor au avut aceeasi tehnica de a se aseza in tara altora si de a epura populatiile bastinase.Din cate am vazut pe blogul tau esti un sustinator al dreptei americane,deci implicit al lui George Bush.Cu asha model ai un viitor luminos in fata.....
Pot si inca foarte bine, dar tu poti? Ce ar fi sa continui lectura raspunsului meu catre tine?gettowar said:husky, wai, tu poti citi? Eu nam zis cas deacord ca Holocaustul nu a existat si ca este o inventie. Eu am spus cas deacord cu faptul ca foarte mare atentie sa acordat la Holocaustul evreilor si au uitat de masacrele rusesti.
Nici vorba de suparare. Nu am rude evrei.groparu said:nu te supara, dar am o intrebare pentru tine: esti evreu sau ai rude evrei?
Eu ti-am raspuns: pentru ca acesti indivizi cauta sa isi justifice antisemitismul prin repunerea in discutie a Holocaustului sau daca nu iti place termenul, a exterminarii programatice, calculate a evreimii europene de catre nazisti. Shoah nu neaga uciderea si masacrarea in conditii similare a nenumarate alte popoare, dar nici unul din aceste popoare nu a fost catalogat de catre propaganda nazista drept inamicul public numarul 1, dusmanul care trebuie anihilat pentru a salva viitorul rasei ariene.groparu said:de ce sint persecutatzi taman acei care incearca sa determine daca holocaustul a fost intr-adevar asa cum ni se prezinta
Bun, n-am timp de citate din carti, dar articolul asta este foarte bun. Arafat n-a fost bagat de nimeni. Crezi in cam multe conspiratii, mister.groparu said:ne spui si noua ce stiu unii (care? cine? de unde stitzi? potzi sa dai referintze?) dintre voi despre "Israel" si de catre cine, cand si cu ce scop a fost inventat termenul "palestinian"?
Arafat a fost una din figurile politice bagate acolo de catre cineva cu un scop anume...
uite ce scrie lumea despre pretinsa imigrare in masa a arabilor (la care presupun ca te-ai referit): [...]
Nu stiu cum se numea exact ziarul olandez, dar citatul este autentic. Oricum, mai am unul si asta chiar e the real thing, entry-ul de pe blog fiind foarte bun.http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2006/11/there-are-no-palestinians.html said:Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said just that on March 31, 1977 in an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw:
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
In ceea ce priveste Neturei Karta, credeam ca esti la curent cu activitatile acestei secte care vorbeste despre necesitatea distrugerii Israelului si considera sionismul (miscarea care a facut posibila infiintarea Israelului) ca fiind the will of Satan made manifest.http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2006/11/there-are-no-palestinians.html said:"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people, and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969; The Washington Post (June 16, 1969)
Da' articolul postat de tine la #42 a ce seamana? Crezi ca intamplator te-am intrebat eu de ziarul arab din care e extras? Compara acel articol cu cuvantarile lui Ahmadinejad. Vezi vreo diferenta? In ambele cazuri este vorba, in esenta, de negarea Holocaustului si contestarea dreptului la existenta al statului Israel.groparu;201995 said:Husky40, articolul despre care ai scris ca e foarte bun, seamana mai mult a propaganda pro-Israel.
Dar evreii au si ei dreptul la un stat propriu? Daca da, unde ar trebui sa fie situat acest stat? As vrea sa-ti amintesc ca in Palestina au trait evrei si dupa ocuparea acesteia de catre arabi. Sunt de acord ca n-a fost usor si nu e usor ca doua popoare cu culturi si religii diferite sa convietuiasca pe cateva zeci de kilometri patrati ...Poate eu gresit m-am exprimat, dar ideea oricum aceeasi ramane: evreii au venit acolo unde de foarte multzi ani stateau arabi. E si normal ca arabii se vor supara. Nu-s mare amator de arabi, dar in cazul dat, eu is de partea lor.
Sfinx;201997 said:Dar evreii au si ei dreptul la un stat propriu?
Sfinx;201997 said:Daca da, unde ar trebui sa fie situat acest stat?
Sfinx;201997 said:As vrea sa-ti amintesc ca in Palestina au trait evrei si dupa ocuparea acesteia de catre arabi. Sunt de acord ca n-a fost usor si nu e usor ca doua popoare cu culturi si religii diferite sa convietuiasca pe cateva zeci de kilometri patrati ...
Ma ingrozesti, groparule !groparu;202010 said:nu, pentru ca si l-au pierdut foarte demult pe al lor
Ca de exemplu?daca totusi insistau sa aiba stat, trebuiau sa si-l faca pe un pamant nepopulat; sint sigur ca exista pamanturi nepopulate mult mai fertile decat acela unde s-au bagat...
Sfinx;202018 said:Ca de exemplu?
Curios, ce e favorabil Israelului e propaganda, ce e antisemit si contra Israelului este critica obiectiva.groparu said:Husky40, articolul despre care ai scris ca e foarte bun, seamana mai mult a propaganda pro-Israel. Citindu-l, mi-am amintit de istoria scrisa de sovietici, pe care totusi am apucat sa o prind Apropo de sovietici... eu cred ca nu intamplator evreii aveau un statut special in URSS si dupa destramare, au inhatzat toate bogatziile...
Gresit, groparu, cat se poate de gresit. Arabii au venit acolo unde de foarte multi ani stateau evreii. Cam asa sta treaba, fie ca iti convine, fie ca nu. Nu mai erau folosite decat cateva "camere" din "casa", dar uite ca s-au intors si restul membrilor familiei. Ghinion pentru cei care au intrat ilegal si le-au ocupat.groparu said:Poate eu gresit m-am exprimat, dar ideea oricum aceeasi ramane: evreii au venit acolo unde de foarte multzi ani stateau arabi. E si normal ca arabii se vor supara. Nu-s mare amator de arabi, dar in cazul dat, eu is de partea lor.
Prima afirmatie este SF si apare intr-adevar in retorica Neturei Karta. Ti-am zis ca baietii aia sunt bolnavi, nu vrei sa intelegi treaba ta. Macar adu-ti aminte de regatul lui David si Solomon. Nu e nevoie sa gasesti o dezmintire oficiala pentru a nega fanteziile unor rabini care se pupa cu Ahmadinejad.groparu said:nu, pentru ca si l-au pierdut foarte demult pe al lor + in cartzile lor scrie ca nu au voie sa-si faca propriul stat [e nevoie de citat, dar nu am acum timp sa-l caut]
daca totusi insistau sa aiba stat, trebuiau sa si-l faca pe un pamant nepopulat; sint sigur ca exista pamanturi nepopulate mult mai fertile decat acela unde s-au bagat...
Iti atrag atentia groparu ca folosesti o logica foarte bolnava. Vrei sa iti fac o paralela? "Da, a fost violata de aia doi, dar chiar crezi ca e numai vina lor?". Poftim? Asa se pune problema? Prietene, vrei sa vezi cum mergi pe strada si iti iei un pumn de la cineva pe care nu l-ai vazut in viata ta, cu care nu ai schimbat vreodata o vorba si pe care sigur nu o sa il mai vezi in viata ta? Chiar crezi ca toate trebuie sa aiba un motiv bine intemeiat? Ii stii pe smecherii aia cu "nu-mi place fata ta, ba", motiv indeajuns de valabil incat sa poata fi folosit pentru a te baga in spital? Ura fata de evrei nu trebuie sa un motiv precis. O sa iti dau un citat din cineva mult mai inteligent decat mine.groparu said:nimeni nu i-a atins atat timp cat ei n-au facut prostii. crezi ca degeaba atat de multzi ii "iubesc" pe ei? oare chiar fara motiv a aparut acest "antisemitism"? (eu l-as numi altfel, ca grupul de popoare semitice nu include doar evrei)
Andre Glucksmann - Discursul urii said:"Un animal cuprins de furie", "o fiara cruda" [n.r. vorbeste despre fabula lui Tolstoi], un lup ne infatiseaza spectacolul urii in stare pura, cu falsele ei straluciri traditionale, furia, mania, bestialitatea, ferocitatea, etaland arsenalul lor complet. Ura scuza fara sa stie. Ura judeca fara sa auda. Ura condamna dupa bunul ei plac. Ea nu respecta nimic, crede ca infrunta un complot universal. La capatul puterilor, cuirasata in platosa resentimentului ei, transeaza totul printr-o samavolnica si suverana ticalosie. Urasc, deci exista.